drew sagan

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Posts by drew sagan

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  14

  Washington Post article - Knocking guy

  by Dagney in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  (apologies if this has been posted already...couldn't find it had).

  http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/05/prop_8_ruling_a_blow_to_all_minorities.html?hpid=talkbox1.

  i was sent this by a missionary.

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  drew sagan

  Thanks for pointing out those quotes cabasilas, a good find.

  Confession said:

  The fact that Jehovah's Witnesses don't vote against gay marriage is because they don't frigging vote AT ALL, you bozo!

  Exactly. Is Joes suggesting that if somebody is part of a conservative fundamentalist religion they should excuse themselves from the political process? What is he really driving at. If he laid it out with specifics the arguement would fall flat, so it's better to do it through suggestion.

  Again, the fact that JWs excuse themselves from the political process tells us nothing about how the process should function. Should people be involved in the political process at all? Should they reconsider the way they go about it? According to Joel it seems that he wants to tell the political fundamentalists "get lost", but has no real great argument for doing so. This is a democracy dumbass, and if you disagree with people you better come up with a better reason to combat ideas you disagree with than showcase an insular religion like JWs as a shining example.
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  16

  Governing Body Talks @ Convention

  by nbernat in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  well the convention was extremely long and boring but i decided to take specific notes on brother morris's talks for discussion here on jwd (and i was also able to get a few extra copies of the creation dvd so if anyone wants one, pm me).. overall, the brother is not a great orator and sometimes awkwardly raises his voice.

  i am aware that some of the friends were a little disappointed to say the least that we did not get a more "famous" gb brother at the first international convention, but he speaks for the gb, so same difference.. it felt like most of his talks were around a.

  ) countering criticism about jws and b.

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  drew sagan

  Yeah about those two dates....

  1914: They never predicted anything that came true. Yes, a war started. But that's not Armageddeon, the event they said would happen.

  1942: They never predicted that an organization named "the league of nations" would arise. Just plain false. I've never even seen this claim published in the magazines.
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  12

  Oh well another cult uses it....

  by mouthy in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  http://www.tribtoday.com/page/content.detail/id/523105.html?nav=5021.

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  drew sagan

  And the Masons are a cult because.....?
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  16

  child abuse is a catholic problem according to public talk

  by bereanbiblestudent in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i went to the public talk and the speaker told us that child abuse is a problem in the catholic church but not so for jehovah s witnesses.. .

  i wondered why he said that would that have been in the manuscript.

  i know i told him about how it really was when he visited me at home.. .

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  drew sagan

  Child abuse can be a problem for any group. The question is not if it happens (any large social organization like this can have the problem of local authority figures abusing their power), but what is done when it happens. I think the record shows JWs have a mixed record at best (with most of the credit going to Elders who do not tolerate the behavior, not Watchtower policy which can be vague and misleading).
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  35

  The young ones are leaving in droves!!!

  by 1914BS in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i hear that many congos are loosing all their young dubs and now only very old dubs are left.

  it seems the jws religion is dying out because there are no youngins to replace the aging ms/elder/cos .

  the young dubs are very internet savy and would rather play warcraft than go out in the field circus.. i remember a wt study article a couple of years ago that was entitled" when a young person rebels" or something like that - anyone know that mag?.

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  drew sagan

  I tend to ride the fence on this one.

  My own personal experience tells me that what you say is basically true, that young ones are leaving. I know my old congregation was basically all older people. I eventually see consolidation for that group.

  The numbers also suggest that they are hurting, but in a little bit differant way. The Witnesses still experience growth, but at a huge expense. When you factor how many people are baptized vs. the number of publishers the year before you realize that they are potentially loosing 1 member for every 2 they bring in.

  So they do have growth, it's just that they are not very controled about it. People are not sticking around. This may eventually turn into negative numbers, but so far it has not.
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  53

  Did You Personally Believe "The End" Was Going To Come In Your Lifetime?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  honestly, i never believed in the chronology.

  "no man knows the day or the hour" was pretty clear to me..

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  drew sagan

  I actually did Of course, the more time went by the more I was inclined not to think of it as right around the corner. It eventually became a more casual belief. Practically speaking, it would have to be or I would have gone completely crazy. I'm sure it's the same for many JWs.
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  45

  Very confused-help please

  by hatchetsup in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just found this board late last night and can't stop reading, it's fascinating.. let me give you a quick background of myself.

  i was born a jw, never baptized, was labeled bad association when i was 12 due to having all worldy friends and smoking, lol.

  i was very confused how being that young i could be labelled as that but i was.

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  drew sagan

  It's time to get some perspective on your JW experience.

  I suggest you may want to begin by reading "Crisis of Conscience" by Raymond Franz. A real eye opener.

  More than anything take your time in reassessing the JWs and realize that you can listen to both sides. Don't buy into the idea that you can only listen to JWs and nobody else. You're more than able to listen and objectivly weigh evidence and arguments that JWs (and ex-jws) will give.

  You may also find it useful to learn a bit more about apocalyptic movements in general. You'll find out that the JWs are not nearly as unique as you may think they are (for example one striking feature of apocalyptic movements is how they tend to teach people that they "cannot trust their own judgement" and instead have to rely upon God, which conveneintly means following their beliefs)
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  34

  Update from Open Mind.

  by Open mind in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i don't get much chance to post on jwd, err, jwn anymore thanks to a major tightening of web policies where i work.. .

  this place was a lifesaver for me.

  i owe simon and the heavy-lifter posters of yore an enormous debt.. .

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  drew sagan

  Sounds great, my wife just asked me the other day how thing were going with you. I'm glad to see that there is improvement. Having a long term stradgey really does pay off!
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  14

  Washington Post article - Knocking guy

  by Dagney in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  (apologies if this has been posted already...couldn't find it had).

  http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/05/prop_8_ruling_a_blow_to_all_minorities.html?hpid=talkbox1.

  i was sent this by a missionary.

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  drew sagan

  One of the main things I've noticed that Joel tries to do is set up Jehovah's Witnesses as an example of fundamentalists who are "doing it right". He seems to believe that the JWs voluntary removal from the political process provides a good example of how religions should be acting. As such, the film as well as the thigns he has written usually contain a very generic comparison of fundamentalists evangelicals (or in this case mormons) to JWs.

  What Joel really believes is that even though JWs are "hated" by people of other faiths (and have even been heavily persecuted by them) JWs are actually morally superior. Kind of a "shame on you" tactic. JWs to him are more like a tool he can use to get across a moral argument.

  Many people disagree with the Watchtower Society and Jehovahs Witnesses for non-theological reasons. The inconsistancy of their blood policy (as well as their aggressive tactics in upholding it), the restrictions on individual freedom of JWs to publish their own thoughts, disfellowshipping and all its abuses, as well as the denial of college are just a few of the many negative practices the Watchtower Society pushes along without question. One does not have to be religious to believe these things are wrong. As such, Joel creates a fantasy world in which this small sect of neutral JWs who mind their own business and hurt nobody are a shining exmample for the worlds religious hypocrites. To compare these two groups in such a stark way in simply a mistake.
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  32

  What happens if you show up at the DC with no badge?

  by JeffT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm thinking of going to one this summer to research an article i want to write.

  back in my time anybody could just walk in, but some recent threads sound like that might be hard to do.

  i'm also going to try to get a local paper to give me one time press credentials.

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  drew sagan

  VM44,

  Never have seen that badge before. That's about the most explicit form of indirect prophecy hype I've ever seen. Crazy stuff!